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Poster: MaureenKennedy Date: Jun 27, 2009 7:13pm
Forum: texts Subject: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

I used to come here daily to review all the new additions to the text section Of IA, but not any longer. All I find is pages and pages of Goodgle indexing of their titles which leads people AWAY from IA onto Google website to DL pdf from their pages. And what is uploaded daily seems to be all alphabetically arranged titles - like D's in Die, Dur which means lots and lots of German books which are useless to me.

By allowing Google to continue this practice (and some of the books are duplicates of others already here on IA) they are really trashing this site and making it even more difficult to use. They can't take the time to make some keywords and descriptions like which volume is which.

Why doesn't IA just discontinue Google uploading, and just simply tell people if they can't find the book here they can try at Google, because after all, that is where the book is anyway?

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Poster: yow1e Date: Jul 4, 2009 5:01am
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

I totally agree with your comment. In that google have not only denigrated IA, but also misrepresented IA's integrity.

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Poster: stbalbach Date: Jul 4, 2009 7:23pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

1. Internet Archive staff members are the ones copying Google texts over, so that we have a backup archive of Googles texts - Google is not "dumping" anything. Internet Archive is, well, archiving the Internet.

2. What's the problem with "integrity"? If you really don't want to see it just exclude Google from your searches. ie:


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Poster: yow1e Date: Jul 4, 2009 8:01pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

Fact 1: I did not use the word dumping. Rather I used the words "denigrate" and "misrepresent". If you are going to quote someone, then grow up and use the words as they have been represented, not otherwise.
Fact 2: The reason why I chose to employ those two words in the conjunctive phrase, is because I used google (through IA)to download a pdf ebook, only to discover that they were only selling that book, that is called misrepresentation. As google are going to pull stunts like that, then IA ought to acknowledge it, not otherwise.

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Poster: stbalbach Date: Jul 6, 2009 11:24am
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

Uh no, the subject line says "tired of Google dumping" to which you replied "I totally agree with" to which I corrected that Google is not "dumping".

I'd be curious what book your referring too, Ive never seen a commercial pdf on IA (via Google), but would like to see it if so.

This post was modified by stbalbach on 2009-07-06 18:24:21

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Poster: dudeman5685 Date: Jun 27, 2009 7:40pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

I second that.

Is it simply for non-US users who can't get that stuff?

If they just send the user back to google with all the limitations,then whats the point?

The amer. libraries section is almost entirely google. The Canadian area is the only place with original titles.

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Poster: BoloResartus Date: Jul 1, 2009 11:35pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

I've noticed that it isn't just Google with problems for
the end-user. Some of the MSoft digital copies are very
crappy and difficult to read. The idea of a digital
depository is a great one so far the implementations haven't
been done with the appropriate care.

On the bright side, I have found things I have wanted to
read for years here.

I also notice that some multi volume works seem to be incomplete, either someone made off with the book before
the scans were done or the scanner couldn't find it.

I pretty much gave up on the Google books, if I can find another IA copy elsewhere.

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Jul 4, 2009 6:13pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

>> Suggestions <<

Separate IA catalogue (s) for Google Books with big warnings, and constantly updated news on how to download.

Then either separate catalogue for USA downloads only, or a big bright flag on each item.

>> My thoughts since I have heaps spare time with no new texts to read. <<

I have noted two things over the 2 or more years that I have been with IA where I get notification via RSS feeds of new additions to the catalogues that interest me and where I might only have a search day once a month.

In the last 6 months or so at least, there has been a noticeable reduction in total uploads to the text archive, according to the count given on my Google RSS Reader, and while I used to find 4-5 text downloads that interested me per day, I don't recall the last time I found anything useful to download.

Is there any way for us to know if text uploads by IA members have decreased since Google joined the party? I recall Bill Gates was a latecomer to the WWW, and when he did catch on, he began putting the competitor browsers out of business by using dirty tactics, and his MS DOS was just renamed from a version of DOS he bought in from a 3rd party, and the Windows GUI idea he stole from Xerox, I mean GUI was not even Bill Gates original idea. Yet lots of people believe Bill invented Windows.

Is there any way to know how many members stopped uploading texts, and/or resigned when big Google joined in?

There's money in those old out-of-copyright texts, and Big Google has got the venture capital to take over all the texts, just like Bill Gates tried to tie up the Browser market.

>> Main Point <<

When Google joined in, why did my daily new text RSS notifications from the Archive reduce, rather than the logical increase by the number of Google daily uploads?

>> Ending <<

I would add, I have downloaded a few texts recently, but not relevant to my main interests, which is old technology, and other texts I can relate to Human Rights, as in abuses of, in the past, to match with on-going abuses happening today, via more politically correct methods.

Where are those old mail order catalogues, and books on things to make at home? I saw some on making footwear, shoes, while I can afford to buy shoes, aren't there a lot of places around the world, and with the recession, in NZ and the USA too, where people NEED to make their own shoes?

And, shelters, home built farming equipment, windmill, home power generation as in the 1930s, new books on those topics and more are no longer being uploaded.

Becuase lots of people in the USA tired of the faster and faster rat-race life style there, are getting out, and returning to the past, for a better more relaxing life style.

That where Google is going to make money.

This post was modified by Time Traveller on 2009-07-05 01:13:51

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Poster: stbalbach Date: Jul 4, 2009 7:17pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

The Google texts are being uploaded by the staff of Internet Archive. It's a great idea since we don't know if the Google texts will always be available. In fact I have seen one disappear from Google, but luckily IA had copied it over so I could get the copy here. It's what IA does best, archive the internet, no matter what the source, so it will always be available. Google doesn't promise that.

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Jul 4, 2009 11:22pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

Google does not promise that doing anything, unless there is profit for itself in it.

Is it IA staff legally grabbing text off Google and moving it to the Archive?

If so, how far away is somebody with software to automate the process from a ultra high speed wwww connection?

And get it done ASAP before Google stops the competition?

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Poster: stbalbach Date: Jul 6, 2009 10:52am
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

It's legal in terms of ownership rights. It may violate Google terms of use?, but most likely they have a side agreement which is why we see links to the PDF going back to Google, but just a guess. I don't think just anyone can bulk download and re-host the Google PDF's as a whole collection.

It's mostly automated now with scripts.

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Jul 6, 2009 6:39pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

NZ has different copyright rules from the USA which has different rules from the UK, then of cause you wonder which rules a book published only in the UK is under when the Text PDF also containing a copyright under UK law ends up on the USA based IA.

What if the UK book, with enclosed copyright notice, was scanned in NZ, then uploaded to the USA based IA?

And then of cause the IA and Google Books (and other archives) all have a Terms of Use, and they are all different from each other despite them all being USA based.

So, then for example, if the same still-in-copyright UK book, was scanned in NZ USA France Germany, and all put on the IA at the same time, then downloaded to several countries and copied and sold, would not the copyright owner have to take legal action in several countries, all with different copyright laws and legal procedures.

Scan a UK book in NZ, email it to a friend in France, the person there uploads it to the USA IA. Who is then responsible for breach of copyright? The scanner only made ONE copy. The person in France is working under their copyright laws. And the PDF is is only being multiple distributed by a server in the USA. Logicaly I think, the copyright owner needs to get both the NZer and the guy from France into the same court room, to determine who was responsible or if it was a conspiracy, but which Court room, in the UK, or the USA. And what if those courts have no jurisdiction in NZ or France, meaning, no way to order the two conspirers to pay compensation?to the UK based victim?

What if the book itself was carried to a 3rd world country, with no copyright laws itself, and with a legal system that does not work (bribes, etc) scanned and put on a server there?

That would mean the copyright owner had no legal means of redress, and maybe his only option, would be to have all the world's ISPs block that server. That's not an option, not all ISPs are honest.

What if the IA was advised by the copyright owner, that his copyrighted book was on the IA, and that the IA disagreed the book was under copyright, and left it there.

Would the copyright owner take legal action? Its only the threat of legal action, (as per Terms of Use) that results in copyright material being removed from honest WWW sites like IA and Google.

But would the copyright owner carry thru on his threat?

What a mess the copyright laws are. it seems only the Terms of Use on IA and Google (etc) carry any weight, they indicate that just a threat of legal action, will result in them removing a book, leaving the scanner/uploader and copyright owner, to sort it out between themselves.

And there, the side with the most money to buy lawyers always gets its way, whether or not its legal argument is valid.

I recall reading once, about the time when air travel was becoming popular, about the 1920s. Nobody knew what nationality a baby would be, if born on a plane.

The parents being Italian.
The plane half way over the English Channel, Paris to London.
And the plane belonging to a German Air line.

And what about instead of a baby being born, one of the passengers committed murder.

I suppose protection laws can never keep up with new technology,and today, the laws are falling further and further behind.

Its time for one world wide legal system.

But no-way would the USA allow other countries to influence its laws, neither would the UK and NZ.

Its the wild west, we discuss text copyrights, other people discuss porn issues, scams.

Of cause, the WWW is changing the world.

And I foresee the day when one country nukes anther country, over a copyright dispute for one book.

True, without copyright protection, nobody will be producing new books any more.

(c)2009 All rights for above message reserved. (Time Traveller, just in case there is big bucks one day)

This post was modified by Time Traveller on 2009-07-07 01:39:16

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Poster: stbalbach Date: Jul 7, 2009 5:47pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

Great post.

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Jul 11, 2009 12:11am
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

Thanks, sorry for the delay, I have been busy.

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Poster: garthus Date: Jul 11, 2009 6:13am
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

Time traveler,

Yes this was a great message. I hope that you were kidding about the copyright since copyrights have very little to do with art or research. The great writer will produce literature regardless of copyright rules, which incidentally benefit publishers much more than the writer. I produce all of my stuff in the Creative Commons, for others to see and hopefully add to or improve upon, not for some corrupted Western profit motive. Just a sample:

as good or as bad as this work might be, it has nothing to do with the Amerikan so-called copyright rules. Literature should be out there for others to enjoy (or not) not designed to attract the more base instincts of the public through some corporate-controlled profit motive. In any case whose ideas will get better circulation, those that are created and placed under lock and key, or those which are freely available?


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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Jul 11, 2009 7:36pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

My copyright on my thoughts was all about kidding, true there might be big bucks one day from what I write, but I first have to have big bucks to protect my rights, if anybody makes money from my ideas as in using them in a book. Copyright law says, even if its changed slightly in wording, they are still my ideas, and that is what copyright law is protecting.

A big joke is, I could be in trouble, if somebody has expressed those ideas before, in a best seller, profitable book, if the copyright owner gets very upset believing I harmed his money maker, I would have to prove in a court of law, that I had no prior knowledge of the book. And it is imposable to prove a negative. (its taken me years in NZ, but I am close to doing that, in a human rights/privacy issue, all on my own)while the copyright owner just has to prove my ideas match his, and he published first.

The even bigger joke is, that my "all rights reserved" is, automatic, goes without saying, that is the basis of all copyright law, (BUT are the lawmakers going to help me, or provide funding, for me to protect my copyright?)

And in fact, since "all rights reserved" is automatic, any copyright notice I might add, would be about reducing my automatic rights.

So the biggest joke of all in the end is, the copyright laws.

But without them, nobody would be writing best sellers or producing great movies and music.

And the WWW is managing to destroy the rights of best selling authors, to make money from their best selling works of art.

Tom Clancy, does a lot of research (9/11 got copied from his book "Debt of Honour" some people believe,) and I have noticed that Clive Cussller pulls a lot of his high technology ideas from the latest Popular Mechanic Magazines, the articles about the latest inventions and new knowledge. (most books from Clive, hinge around ideas he got from PM)

My point there is, Gerry, for them it is a full time occupation, if it was just a hobby in between working for a living elsewhere, would their books be worth reading? (without all the research they must do?)

What about Star Trek? (which is the greatest along with second best 2001, ET ) Star Wars (which I never liked) without copy protection, there would be no such films.

(I call ST believable ST, in other words, its as if it is a reality series on the lines of a current soap opera, or TV series set in the Iraq war of today, in effect, while watching ST, is as if I am in the future too ST's shuttles can fight back, but unlike other SiFi films, they don't look like fighter planes)

But admittedly, while the WWW is harming the income from such works of art, the associated home computer technology, means people like us, could soon be producing movies just as good using computer generated actors and scenery, and we would have whatever role in the story that we chose. even if we weren't great actors, our computers could adjust for that.

Admittedly, the Star Trek TV series was low budget, no budget for shuttle travel to the ground on planets, so the apparently popular/simple transporter got invented, for the original ST, then with the latest Star Trek Enterprise stories, based on a time before Kirk and Spock, the producers had computers to generate shuttle animations, and the transporter was something frightening and not common place.

The money was made from the ST movies, and big bucks was spent on making the movies, that is what the copyright is protecting mainly, its NOT only the ideas of the writer of the story. (I am hoping ST on TV will soon be back, but all produced with computer actors and and animation, you can hardly tell today, what is real, and what is done inside a computer)

Now, going back to books, the biggest cost of a best seller, is not the author's idea, as once its saved to his HDD (with plenty of back up copies)the main cost in reproduction is printing on paper and distribution of the physical book, plus costs of selling it.

So this is what I think is going to happen, and computers and the WWW have made it possible.

Every state in the world continues with its own copyright laws, but each state's laws apply worldwide (solar system wide soon)however that does open one question, can, or should a author be allowed to chose the state his book is published from, the state having the copyright law most profitable for him? I think the answer might be, the state in which the author does the most work on that book. After all, my opinion is, if he benefits from a life style and resources from that state, then that state is entitled to a share in the income from that book, via the authors income taxes. (they already today do their best to deny their home state, such taxes, by using loopholes, by finding the state with the best income tax deals

Therefore, for NZ, I write my best seller. Our law would state, I would have full protection for 20-years, unless I choose myself to reduce it. I note that today, it is the publisher investing money in producing hard copies that needs protection the most, but for how long? The author actually has handed over his rights to the copyright to the publisher investing the money in reproducing his work of art. And in affect, it means less-great writers that just a few people would read have trouble getting published unless a publisher sees profits for the publisher, not the author whom might be will to forgo reimbursement for his ideas. Only if he has the money already, could he self publish.

The book would be distributed on the WWW, for a payment for one read, or a larger payment to download and keep.

And software, and laws worldwide, would be all about protecting that one read, and one copy to download, preventing further copies being made or distributed. This would be by linking all software/hardware to my books unique copyright number. Meaning if a person buys a copy to keep, that person can still on-sell that one copy if he wants. (I would have had a larger payment already, instead of the smaller one read only payment)

20 years after the day I released my book, automaticly, my unique copyright number for that book, gets cancelled world wide.

During those 20 years, a central computer collect payments for my work of art, and forwards the payment to my bank account.

I would nominate, for example 50 cents for a download and keep, as I got more popular, towards Tom Clacey's level, I would up date the price, say up to $5, meaning the people getting in early, AND helping make me popular, would benefit too, they could benefit by having bought at 50-cents, then on-sell at $4.50 their ONE copy. There would never be enough used copies to on-sell, when I became more popular.

And hereby, while I am getting rid of today's business model for the publishers, they have a new model to make income, no longer will they get manuscripts from authors offering to sell their full rights to the work of art, the publishers can all (no longer just one) buy for example, one could chose to buy from me 1000 copies at 50-cents, (as per a risk investment)and on-sell at $4.50 when my price gets to $5.

Don't forget, a digital copy is always as good as new, today's trouble is you cannot prevent multiple digital copies being made from the one digital copy that you are paid for.

A writer like Tom Clancey has become, ALWAYS has trouble finding a publisher for his first few books, not until he has been published, is their a demand, causing the publishers to fight over who gets his rights to the book.

Copyright is all about protecting ideas, but to make money from your ideas, you have always needed to find a publisher with a big printing press and distribution network, so the publisher in order to protect his investment in publishing the book, demands, and gets total rights to exclusive control of that book, and how income is generated from it.

The high cost of publishing in the past, has prevented many authors becoming well enough known, so that publishers will publish them, instead the publishers only invested in close to best sellers.

Its called, catering to the majority. So good writers, catering to the minority, are not easily able to cater for the minority.

Look at the history of the Star Trek TV series, low budget in the '60s, always at risk of being dumped by the networks, because of the ratings wars, yet 40-years later, there is still a great demand for reruns (NZ calls it repeats)on free to air, and reruns come over pay for cable, there is money in selling the original TV series on DVD.

Writing the screen plays never cost much, various writers got ideas, (and didn't get paid much) and submitted them, as long as they used the ST "form factor" or background, and were good, their stores were used.

But it was costs of production and distribution that almost cost the world the history of Star Trek.

My idea is, if a author, or play writer for example is happy with 50-cents per read or view of his work of art, so be it, and lets strengthen the worlds copyright laws to give the authors just that, by preventing copies being made for free now that big printing presses and distribution networks are no longer needed for a author to be published.

Above free to distribute, providing the ideas are credited to me as posted as at 2:12-pm 12th July 2009, NZ time. Time Traveller. Free to modify by adding your own ideas.

Who cares, somebody else must be thinking like me.

This post was modified by Time Traveller on 2009-07-12 02:36:20

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Jul 11, 2009 9:13pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

some quick ideas.

Tom Clancy might be just as well off, if he could get the publishers out of the process, he would still get his $1 per book for example, the rest of the book income was going to the publisher. But at $1 per book, Tom Clancy would be lots better off than today, due to increased sales volume.

And consider Microsoft and Bill Gates with his billions, I believe each Windows OS CD/DVD is priced as if it was printed, page by page, on a printing press, instead of stamped out, as per CD/DVD duplication.

Yet, most OEM PC assemblers, get Windows from Microsoft on a master disk. The fact that I and others have to pay heaps for a Windows CD/DVD, means we more likely buy a new PC with pre-installed Windows V.latest than just progressively upgrade our hardware and buy the latest Win OS CD/DVD at a stamped out, not printed price.

Bill Gates gets away with that, because there was no real alternative to Windows so no wonder he is so brassed off over piracy, reverse engineering, and allowing other software writers enough information so to make their applications work well with Windows. (note MS created its own PDF format, its own browser, its own image formats etc, after competitors got in first

And all the copyright and patent laws, have not protected MS and Windows (Apple and MS clashed over the Ctrl and X key combination. Christ, how could that have been protected?)and open source OS arrived.

Linux and the Ubuntu distribution are destroying the MS Windows business model.

Only due to the WWW can people like us, work together to create a open source OS, and only due to the WWW can it be freely distributed world wide, so as it becomes more popular (I believe some USA government departments are already using it)

Imagine open source movies, or in other words, a group of people around the world, using their computers and the WWW, to turn out a block buster movie?

so, when movies were first invented, great movies were made, one camera, a few acters etc, then as technology improved, lots more work was involved, special effects, editing etc, even the stars demanding more money.

We are close to doing away with all that, one person and a computer could conceive a idea for a story, and turn it into a block buster movie.

I think the copy right laws for works of art, text, video, music need to be revised, to ensure the original creator of a idea gets his/her 50 cents per copy, because the big production companies and publishers are fast becoming history.

As for Bill Gates and MS, they were slow to catch on regarding the possibilities of the WWW, but not so slow now, because they have begun planing for the demise of Windows, the future is not a bloated OS, but WWW access with on-line applications.

I think that soon, our whole ideas about writing, publishing and reading a book, will be completely revised, gone will be everything, bar the author and reader.

Back to the world of the craftsmen, gone all the mass production hiring 1000s of people. Think ST replicater technology, just needing craftsmen to design/make the original model of things, to replicate perfect copies of.

That idea came from a old SiFi book, anybody got the title, and where i can get a copy?

just recalled, somebody had the bright idea of replicating cash in that story, but ST covers that, as they don't use such things as any form of money, today's world is fast going to electronic money.

This post was modified by Time Traveller on 2009-07-12 04:13:46

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Jul 11, 2009 9:07pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

I will look soon, and begin putting my ideas there, as my all rights reserved was kidding, and I have been just posting to a forum, not to a distribution area

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Poster: arvidn Date: Jun 30, 2009 12:49am
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

I was actually happy when I saw books being transferred over here from Google Books. Google Books habitually crashes Safari, and even if I switch to Firefox, Google aborts every download after at most 4 MB, unless I use DownThemAll, which somehow manges to ignore their kill signals. Worst of all, all their books are PDFs. I much prefer IA because you can get books in the much superior (and leaner) DjVu format.

I thought: "Great! Now I can download all the books I wanted from Google, that IA didn't have, and don't have to settle for the miserable PDF format!" Wrong! If you download any of these books in DjVu, they're so smeared out as to be unreadable. Does anybody know if this is due to the poor quality of the transferred texts, or a problem with the conversion software over here?

I would really love to replace some of the books I've been forced to settle for PDF versions of with the usual crystal-clear DjVu scans that IA usually has, but to my disappointment, this doesn't work.

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Poster: garthus Date: Jul 1, 2009 7:01am
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA


If you click on the http link in the book section you can see that the pdf is also located in the IA. Can anyone explain why the redirect to the goole site is there? In any case the book is actually located on the IA site also.


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Poster: MaureenKennedy Date: Jul 1, 2009 10:37pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

Gerry, I never thought to click on the http link because when I have before in other cases, I just got individual pages of html rather than a PDF. I see what you mean on the Google incoming that they are PDF under http link. So the book is here but they still are deceiving in misdirection. Thanks for spotting that.

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Poster: Time Traveller Date: Jul 2, 2009 1:12am
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

Are they a bunch of kids at Google playing around, or is there some kind of method behind their apparent madness?


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Poster: garthus Date: Jul 2, 2009 7:01am
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA


Deceptive yes, but most politicians and business leaders practice that art (?). The goal of the Internet Archive should be:

Preservation of the items first, then determination that the items are complete, then cataloging the collection. If this is the price to pay for googleboks, then we have to put up with it until those books can be replaced. In any case there is so much work to do, that we must take whatever help that we can get. The materials which I work on are almost never being digitized. Each google book is less work that we volunteers have to do until some future volunterer can correct the stuation. I must admit that I was a bit worried until I checked the http link and found the pdf file. Anyone can put a link in their metadata; I choose to use the Creative Commons link and make my stuff completely Public Domain; I guess Google must get their free advertising for the book they submit, that may not be in the spirit of the Creative Commons, but it is what they probably choose to do in order to allow us to take their scans.


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Poster: garthus Date: Jun 27, 2009 8:58pm
Forum: texts Subject: Re: So tired of Google dumping their index on IA

Actually, if you click on http you will see that you can download the book from IA also. I do not really know what the purpose of the google link is, something that they probably required. But one could just download the pdf in any case and place it on the archive also.